From Oregon Live
Topic: Constitution
Occasionally I post to the Oregon Live Forum, where my moniker is TrueLiberal. Here are some good discussions of late:

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QUOTE from post by T77: "We must always pay the bills for the things we want. Whether it is an invasion of Iraq or a badly needed reform of Social Security we must never irresponsibly take the product and pass on the costs to others. That is not moral and not good government. If we want Social Security reform and the majority of the younger families and workers do want that, we must pay the cost of the new program. If we do not the reform will be even worse than the collapsing bankrupting mess we have now."

My response:

Pay the bills? Your analogy is way off T77. A bill is something I pay for a service I WANT - like cable, electricity, house payments, food etc. I don't want SS, I never asked for SS. Whether the money the government takes from my paycheck *by force* goes into a public slush fund or to a government controlled "private account" doesn't make a lick of difference to me. It is still money (property) taken from me by force. The irresponsibility you speak of is *government* irresponsibility and passing the cost to others is ALL THEY CAN DO!

SS in any form is immoral. Welfare is immoral. And taxing the labor of individuals in the guise of serving them is immoral.

A man I greatly respect once said:

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

The man who said those things was Thomas Jefferson.

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QUOTE from T77: "You signed up for this when you were born in America or voluntarily became an American citizen As did I. I do not want Social Security in its present form either. I wish to have all my FICA withholdings available to me to invest as I freely choose. Not as the State demands.
Nonetheless, as I am an American citizen, I have certain duties, obligations and requirements placed upon me in return for that immeasurably precious gift. One of these is to meet the financial obligations made by past generations of Americans. Whether the commitments they made were wise or foolish they made them in their name and mine (and yours), as well as my descendents and those of my fellow countrymen.

"The present generation of elderly were promised something they counted on. The fact that the promise was unwise does not in any way detract from the fact it was made. As American citizens in an American democracy we are all responsible for the promises our democratically elected government makes and the actions our democratically elected government takes. We do not run out on them. When we find such promises or actions are unwise we can change them but we cannot run from the promises we made.

"We need (in my estimation) to grant American citizens the freedom to invest their own money as they wish. We also need to live up to the promises we made in lieu of such freedom. We can and must do both. We cannot run out on the bill or our promises. That is not mature or responsible American citizenship."

My Response:

Your statement ""You signed up for this when you were born in America..." is extremely short-sited and actually quite frightening. It is the moral equivalent of a slave in the early 1800's saying to another slave the very same thing. I think you know what the field slaves called the other slaves that defended the slaveholders...

I am not against pay SS benefits to those who have paid into the system. I suggest that the Feds sell the millions of acres of Federal land and property (buildings, etc.) into private ownership and use the revenue generated to cut checks to all who are owed.

Kills two birds with one stone doesn't it? Rids the Feds of a social program it has no constitutional right to run and at the same time rids them of property they have no constitutional right to own!

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QUOTE from MightyS: "Social Security is a "we" thing, not an "I" thing. We all pay in as T77 said, to meet our obligations to those who came before us. Both of my parents are now dead. I could not imagine voting yes for anything that would alter social security. I know that I could take my contributions to SS and put them in a different type of investment, but, at what cost to me?(not monetarily speaking)

So many people in search of the American Dream believing it is being financially wealthy. In reality, every U.S. Citizen is living it! The true dream is the freedom that we have that few citizens of other countries will ever even glimpse in our life times.

Getting rich isn't a bad goal. It is the path that gets you there which counts."

My response:

I know as Kierx2000 said, I am just screaming into the wind here, but please stop and think. "we" thing? "WE" thing? Are you kidding me? Who is this great "We" you speak of?

I assume you agree then, with everything this "We" does in your name? So When "We" decides your house is in the way of a development that "We" wants to build you are A-OK when "We" condemns your house and takes your property? You won't mind if "We" takes away more and more of your individual liberties under the pretense of taking care of you and working towards the "greater good"? Finally, after "We" had usurped every liberty the founding fathers gave you, if "We" started mass extermination of (insert ethnicity) you would be ok with that? You have a lot more faith in the benevolence of the all-knowing "We" than I do.

Freedom? I wonder if you have the slightest idea of what freedom is, how difficult freedom is to maintain and how easy it is for it to be taken away. I never said a thing about getting rich. I'm not rich, and may never be. There is nothing wrong with wealth though. Unless it is looted wealth.

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QUOTE from MightyS: "Something about, "We the people" comes to mind. I do have faith in the "we", because, a group of people doing good things has a great deal of power.

"I wasn't thinking of you in particular about the rich part. It just seems to me that "greed" is run rampant in our country at this point in time. So, the "we" is very very important to maintain the intergrity in which our country was formed.
A group of "we" can be very strong in putting forth evil as you suggested, but, a group of good will always overcome.

By the way, my father served in WWII to help preserve our freedom. I have his flag in my living room." - MightyS

My Response:

MightyS I appreciate the rational discussion we are having, this is a refreshing change from many who respond to my posts. And I am also grateful for your father's service in defense of our country.
However, I think that our country has, for the last 8 or 9 decades, continued along a path that gives ever more power to our government (in blatant disregard to the constitution) under the pretense that the government will provide us with security through a overly strong military and far reaching social welfare programs.

I agree with Benjimin Franklin when he said, "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Although a group of people doing good things has a great deal of power, remember also that the path to hell was paved with good intentions and we cannot allow the will of a good-meaning "We" trump the rights of an individual lest we find ourselves in a country like Cuba or China filled with well meaning "brothers" and "comrades" watching our every move lest we do something that is not in the best interest of "We"

Have you ever read "Anthem" by Ayn Rand? You should. It is a short read and very pertinent to our discussion.